Sunscreen & Sun Safety Explained: SPF Myths, Daily Use, and Skin Health (Part 2)

[Intro] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Facially Conscious with myself, Trina Reneá, Esthetician, Dr. Vicki Rapaport, Dermatologist, Rebecca Gadberry, the Cosmetic Ingredient Guru, and our fabulous, overly-educated consumer, Julie Falls. 

Enjoy Part Two of this episode.

00:29 Trina Reneá: So, Rebecca, I have a question for you about sunscreens. A lot of my darker-skinned clients ask if they even need to wear sunscreen because they have melanin in their skin. They don't really burn, so they don't really wear sunscreen. 

00:45 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, they actually do burn, especially if they're in intense sun for a long length of time. They may not notice visibly, but they'll feel it. Their skin will peel. And when it peels, it comes off splotchy, and you can wind up with a hyperpigmented skin or an underpigmented skin for many years afterwards. 

So sunscreen is really important for people of color. The darker the skin, the more coverage you get. Melanin is an excellent natural sunscreen for all portions of the sunlight, of the sun spectrum. However, it only allows about SPF 15 in the darkest skin tones. If you are lightly pigmented but you're still pigmented, if you still have some melanin, then you probably have an SPF of around 4 or 8 or something like that. That just means you can be in the sun for maybe 10 to 15 minutes without burning.

What we need to do is to make sure that we're wearing a sunscreen that goes on and doesn't have an ashy look or a chalky or a bluish tint. You can still wear the mineral sunscreens, like the titanium dioxide and the zinc oxide, but that product should turn invisible, become invisible after a couple of minutes. All right. 

02:21 Trina Reneá: So people with color need to wear sunscreen as well. 

02:25 Rebecca Gadberry: Absolutely. 

02:26 Trina Reneá: To protect them from UVB and UVA.

02:29 Rebecca Gadberry: Right, and all the other portions of the sun spectrum. We haven't really talked about those. Those are visible light, infrared light. And they damage the skin as well. Sunscreens don't protect from them and so we need to take protection there. 

And there's some new ingredients that are on the market that are actually called melanin. It's genetically, or not genetically, it's a fermented form of melanin that comes from squid and octopus. It's grown in broccoli and cauliflower near Vacaville, California. And there's some other sources of it too. 

03:10 Trina Reneá: These are new ingredients we can look forward to hearing about soon? 

03:13 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes, yes. And they are not allowed to be called a sunscreen because the FDA doesn't recognize it. But look for it in your product, because what they do is they help to protect into the visible ray of the blue light that's emitted from your screens. Any device that has a screen is emitting blue light, and that can cause hyperpigmentation. That can cause aging, deeper wrinkles and lines. 

03:42 Trina Reneá: God, we're in front of our screens all day long and more. 

03:45 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah. And then infrared, I know infrared saunas are becoming really popular. But infrared light actually curdles the protein collagen in the bottom part of your skin that gives your skin the strength and suppleness and fights off wrinkles. 

04:01 Trina Reneá: What?

04:02 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes, so we need to avoid that as well. 

04:05 Trina Reneá: Avoid what? 

04:06 Rebecca Gadberry: Avoid infrared light. 

04:07 Trina Reneá: No.

04:08 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes. Don't sit too close to the fire. Don't stick your head in the oven.

04:14 Trina Reneá: Okay. The oven I won't do. 

04:16 Rebecca Gadberry: Excellent. 

04:16 Trina Reneá: Close to the fire. What about infrared saunas? Oh, my God. I love infrared saunas. They bring down inflammation in the body. 

04:25 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay. But they also curdle collagen. 

04:28 Trina Reneá: Curdle collagen. That sounds horrible. 

04:29 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, I know. Terrible. 

04:31 Trina Reneá: Oh, my God. All right, moving on. 

So most people that are buying these sunscreens, besides their face sunscreen that they pack in their bag, are going on a vacation. You can't take your big sunscreen bottles and things on the plane because they have to be small. So most people, I find, will go to a location, get to their hotel, go to a pharmacy or get it from the hotel gift shop, and they sell all sprays. 

So you pick your evil. Do I want the 50, the 60, the 30? Which one do I want? Waterproof, water resistant? Is there a chemical? Is there a non-chemical? And like, oh, God, they're so expensive. They're $30 for a spray. Like, oh, my God. Let me get the cheaper one. How do you pick which one off of that shelf? So, usually, you just go for the cheaper one and you're like, “Well, at least it's going to protect us.” You buy whatever it is. 

So what do you tell people in that situation? What should they look for? 

05:37 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, as Dr. Vicki was saying, when you spray something on, first of all, FDA says it doesn't work as well as a lotion. That's FDA's position. But it could have benzene in it, because I don't think that issue has been corrected. 

If they have only sprays, then you go someplace else until you find something that is a lotion. 

06:04 Trina Reneá: And then putting lotion on is so messy and yucky.

06:08 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Too bad.

06:09 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, so is getting skin cancer.

06:10 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Get used to it. 

06:11 Trina Reneá: And then you have to sit there for like 20, 30 minutes before you can go into the pool. So you're trying to keep the kid out of the pool. You're trying to slather lotion on them. They're like, “Ah, get off of me.”

06:22 Rebecca Gadberry: Get a very water resistant sunscreen. There's no such thing as waterproof, and anybody who uses that term is misleading you and using it…

06:32 Julie Falls: I was going to ask you the difference between waterproof and water resistant.

06:36 Rebecca Gadberry: Great. 

06:36 Trina Reneá: No waterproof? 

06:38 Rebecca Gadberry: There is no waterproof. Waterproof and sweatproof are misleading because it makes you think that, oh, I... 

06:44 Julie Falls: All day. 

06:45 Rebecca Gadberry: All day.

06:45 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Good, yeah. 

06:46 Rebecca Gadberry: No. What the FDA has now stated is you can say water resistant, which is 40 minutes, and very…

06:56 Trina Reneá: Don't they have to put that number on there? Because I've seen that where it says water resistant for up to 20 minutes or 40 minutes, or something like that. 

07:03 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah. And that's required by the FDA labeling of sunscreens. Sunscreens are drugs. They're not cosmetics. 

07:10 Julie Falls: Interesting. 

07:11 Rebecca Gadberry: So even if a sunscreen is in a foundation or a moisturizer, which are cosmetics, the presence of the sunscreen makes it a drug. And drugs are regulated much more strictly than cosmetics are.

So when you look at a sunscreen and you see that everything is labeled the same way, that labeling is mandated by the FDA. You have to state that. So if it says water resistant for up to 40 minutes, that's FDA language. And you know that that had to be tested and proven to be effective, or you can't make that statement. 

Very water resistant is up to 80 minutes. Then we also have sweat resistant, which is 40 minutes of sweating. I don't want to do 40 minutes of sweating. And 80 minutes, if you are really, really into sweating, very sweat resistant. 

08:06 Trina Reneá: If you're a very sweaty person. 

08:07 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: You're into it.

08:08 Rebecca Gadberry: You’re a super sweaty person. 

08:09 Trina Reneá: Get o0, up to 80 minutes. 

08:11 Rebecca Gadberry: Get up to 80 minutes. But then after you hit that, you need to reapply. And let's say you're in the water and you're only in there for 20 minutes, and it says up to 80 minutes, what it doesn't say is reapply when you get out of the water, regardless of how much time you've been in there. 

But let's go back to what do you choose. You choose a product that is the easiest you can find to apply. 

08:37 Julie Falls: But no more sprays?

08:38 Rebecca Gadberry: But no more sprays.

08:40 Julie Falls: Because that’s what saved us with our kids. We just would spray their bodies.

08:47 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, personally, I don't think that the amount of benzene that you're exposed to during the short time that you're spraying, even if it's once a day all summer, is going to affect you in any way.

08:59 Julie Falls: But have they taken them off the market? 

09:01 Rebecca Gadberry: They have taken them off the market and there's new ones coming out again. Now, those new ones would not be allowed, as far as I know, if they had benzene. 

09:12 Julie Falls: Or a dangerous amount of benzene. 

09:13 Rebecca Gadberry: But I haven't read anything on it, so I'm not a good authority on that. 

09:18 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: And really, truthfully, buying a swim shirt, you can find swim shirts at target in the kids section. You can find swim shirts online for kids. I really am a huge fan of swim shirts for kids. Trina, you keep saying like it's so much easier with the kids and they're whining. Get them used to wearing a swim shirt from day one, from age six months when you put them in the pool for the first time. Swim shirt, swim shirt, swim shirt, until they're teenagers. Then you’ve got 12, 13, 14 years of this incredible sun protection, 100% sun protection. 

And then they go off to camp and then they do whatever they want. But at least you really gave them all those years of 100% protection. That's my huge plug. 

09:57 Trina Reneá: Okay. That's good for the upper body. What about the legs? 

10:05 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: They're less sun exposed because there's more shadows on legs, unless you're literally laying out. Kids don't lay out. Yes, but of course kids can get burned. They're playing around, they get burned. 

10:14 Trina Reneá: But we still need to put sunscreen on the legs. 

10:16 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Lotion on the legs. I mean, you can go as far as to get like swim leggings for them, swim pants for them. I like board shorts for boys and girls. I think they're great, because then you just have to put sunscreen on the knees down and feet. 

I say as little skin exposure as you can until before you'll feel like you're wearing a full spacesuit. But I'm okay with long shorts for girls and boys. 

10:44 Trina Reneá: I have one more thing. A lot of people say that they don't like to wear sunscreen because they want to get tan. So I tell them that your wearing the sunscreen is protecting you from those damaging rays, but you still get sun. You still come back. Because some of my clients will be like, “I wore sunscreen the whole time and look how tan I am.”

And I'm like, “You still get sun tanned through the sunscreen. You just don't get burned and you don't get skin cancer.”

11:17 Rebecca Gadberry: That shows that the sunscreen is not protecting the entire realm or breadth of the UV light.

11:28 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Right. That's exactly right. And also they're not reapplying.

11:30 Rebecca Gadberry: And they're not reapplying. But the problem is there's no such thing as a safe tan. The only way to tan is to cause damage to the gene that says “let's make more melanin”. Once it's triggered and more melanin is made, the DNA damage has been done 

11:49 Trina Reneá: But you look so much better tanned. That's what most people feel. 

11:52 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: That's why people should get spray tans or tan in a bottle. I mean, maybe besides my dad, there's no dermatologist that's going to tell you to go get sun. 

12:04 Trina Reneá: Your dad does tell you. 

12:06 Julie Falls: He did? Does he still?

12:08 Trina Reneá: He tells his patients, he's like, “Go sit in the sun 15 minutes a day.” And I always go, “With sunscreen, with sunscreen,” behind him.

12:14 Julie Falls: Well, I want to ask about that, because a lot of people think it's important to get a little bit on your shoulders, on your feet for the vitamin D benefit. 

12:24 Trina Reneá: Do you still get vitamin D through sunscreen? 

12:27 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: The answer to vitamin D and the sun, the sun is a very effective way to get vitamin D. The way it's converted very efficiently is excellent. But the true position that the dermatologists take and the AAD, which is our governing body, American Academy of Dermatology, the position on sun and vitamin D is that there is truly no safe amount of sun that allows you to be exposed on a daily basis to convert vitamin D because it's a made-up number. 15 minutes a day was like somebody just literally made it up. It stuck and so everybody perpetuates it. 

But if you don't have a gut issue or an absorption issue, you really should just get it in food and supplements. You should not train yourself to think that it's a good amount of sun getting your vitamin D from sun exposure, because it's just not. No amount of sun is safe, if you're trying to avoid skin cancers and deadly melanoma and then all the cosmetic wrinkles later in life. 

13:28 Rebecca Gadberry: And the correlation between wearing a sunscreen and not making vitamin D has never been linked. There's no study that shows it. What they did, this was like in the 1980s, is they looked at people in senior living homes, what we used to call old age facilities. And the fact that they didn't have high vitamin D and that in certain homes they were putting on sunscreen to these people when they went outside. So they correlated the two. 

But there's a correlation that everybody alive is going to die. That doesn't mean that being alive causes death. So the correlation doesn't make any sense.

14:14 Julie Falls: No. It could have been the food they're eating. It could have been the fact that they're older. 

14:18 Rebecca Gadberry: Old, and that's what it was, is the fact that they're old. 10% of the U.S. population wears daily sunscreen. 42% of the U.S. population is low on vitamin D. Just from those numbers, you know that it doesn't correlate. 

And like Dr. Vicki said, taking 1,000 IUs of vitamin D a day, or whatever your doctor tells you to take. I take 50,000 IUs a week not because I wear sunscreen, but because my body doesn't produce enough vitamin D.

14:51 Julie Falls: I was told that I had too much. 

14:53 Rebecca Gadberry: And you can. 

14:54 Julie Falls: You take a supplement, but only five days a week, not seven. 

14:57 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: What about, you know, you're such a nutrition fan. What about getting it from food?

15:04 Julie Falls: I think that's probably why. 

15:05 Trina Reneá: Wait, you have too much? 

15:09 Julie Falls: I had plenty.

15:09 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: You were supplementing too much. 

15:11 Trina Reneá: You were supplementing? 

15:11 Julie Falls: No, I just was told the last time I had bloodwork done that I don't— she said, “You have plenty. You don't need it every day. Do it five days instead of seven days.” 

15:23 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Sounds good. 

15:24 Trina Reneá: That’s nice. 

15:24 Julie Falls: I also think it has to do with living in Southern California. You're getting it the minute you walk outside and you're in your car. You can't avoid it. 

15:34 Trina Reneá: My blood said, they said I have to take more vitamin D. 

15:36 Julie Falls: Interesting.

15:38 Trina Reneá: Yeah, and I live in Southern California. I don't know. 

15:42 Rebecca Gadberry: I live at the beach.

15:44 Trina Reneá: How's your vitamin D? 

15:45 Julie Falls: It could be a genetic makeup. 

15:46 Rebecca Gadberry: I take 50,000 units a week. Yeah, it could be genetic. There's a number of reasons. Poor diet. Although I eat a lot of cheese and yogurt and fish, oily fish: salmon, mackerel, tuna. They're higher in vitamin D, the best source of vitamin D. 

16:07 Julie Falls: You just rub the fish on your body? 

16:10 Rebecca Gadberry: I take the smoked oysters and I rub them on my body. My husband thinks it's a new fragrance and he loves it.

16:16 Trina Reneá: Gross. 

16:19 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I thought it was a necklace you made with oysters. 

16:20 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, yes. But oysters, they're really high in vitamin D. 

16:24 Julie Falls: Yum. Can I just say that, getting back to what Trina was saying about if you're in the house or you're thinking, “Oh, I don't need my sunscreen today because I'm not going out,” or whatever. If you have it as part of your daily routine, wherever you live, wherever you're traveling, wherever you're going, wherever you're not going, it's part of your steps. After you do your moisturizer…

16:48 Rebecca Gadberry: It's part of your routine.

16:49 Julie Falls: As your routine. You put it on. There's so many, as you say, elegant ones. I've been using this wonderful Jan Marini one lately. Your hands, your neck. 

16:59 Trina Reneá: Yeah, don't forget your hands, your neck.

17:01 Julie Falls: Your décolleté.

17:03 Rebecca Gadberry: And the top of your ears. 

17:04 Trina Reneá: Yes.

17:05 Julie Falls: I never do because I always feel like my... 

17:05 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, because you wear your hair over your ears. 

17:08 Julie Falls: Yeah. No, but that's probably a very good tip, the top of your ears. 

17:12 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: My only caveat to that would be if your sunscreen is just a chemical sunscreen and not a physical sunscreen, and you're really only going to be in the house, you don't need to put more chemicals on your face. But if it's a mineral sunscreen, then we know that it's safe and it's not ultra micronized. It's just micronized. Then, yes, put it on every day as part of your routine. 

But if you can avoid the chemicals, avoid them.

17:34 Julie Falls: Yeah.

17:35 Trina Reneá: It sounds to me like... 

17:37 Julie Falls: Is the Jan Marini a physical? 

17:41 Trina Reneá: She has a physical and...

17:43 Julie Falls: The daily one with a little bit of tint is a mineral. 

17:45 Trina Reneá: Is a chemical.

17:48 Julie Falls: Oh, it is?

17:49 Trina Reneá: Yes. 

17:50 Rebecca Gadberry: One thing I'd like to add here is that FDA came out, probably around 2015, and said that powders are not effective sunscreens. 

18:00 Julie Falls: I don't like them. 

18:02 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah. That they're not effective sunscreens and they recommended taking powders off the market. 

18:09 Trina Reneá: When was that?

18:10 Rebecca Gadberry: I think it was 2015. 

18:12 Trina Reneá: But it's still there. 

18:14 Rebecca Gadberry: As far as I know, because the final monograph that describes what a sunscreen is, how to test it, what to say about it, which sunscreen chemicals you can use and which ones to use together, the percentage that you use, all of that is in a document, a regulatory document from FDA called a monograph.

And all over-the-counter drugs, which are drugs you can buy without a prescription, which includes sunscreens, have monographs. You have to comply to them in order to make a drug under that monograph. It's kind of like it's pre-approved. You don't have to go to the FDA and get special approval for it. As long as you stick to the regulations in the monograph, you're fine. 

But FDA has not approved a final monograph on sunscreens, and this has been going on since I think…

19:05 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: On powders, you mean?

19:07 Rebecca Gadberry: On any sunscreens, since 1972. Because sunscreen technology has been changing so fast, especially in the last five years, that they can't approve the final monograph. And if it isn't finally approved, then it isn't legal. It's just guidelines to go by. 

So you'll still find things up there like powders, which FDA wants to stop selling, but the monograph isn't final.

Another thing that drives me nuts, my husband says it's not a long drive, but one of the things that drives me nuts is the term “sunblock”. Because no sunscreen blocks 100% of the sun. So it gives you a feeling of confidence that you should not have. And yet sunblock is on the proposed monograph as being not legal to say. But everybody's using it, and it seems like since they said, I think it was 2011 or 2013, that you can't say sunblock, everybody's saying it now. No, it was 1998.

20:15 Trina Reneá: And waterproof.

20:16 Rebecca Gadberry: And waterproof.

20:17 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Just like teenagers. Just don't tell them what not to do and they'll do it. 

20:20 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, they'll do it. 

20:22 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Sunscreen is like teenagers. 

20:24 Rebecca Gadberry: So every time I hear somebody say sunblock, I correct them. I know I'm obnoxious about it, but I think it's one of those little tiny bits of misinformation that can be very damaging and harmful to people, especially if you're putting “sunblock” on kids. 

20:41 Trina Reneá: That's a question I have about kids, is like how young can you start putting sunscreen on your babies? And besides the clothing, which is probably going to be the safest, like when can you actually start using? And do you use chemical or, obviously, probably more mineral?

21:02 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, the safest is not getting them in the sun. 

21:05 Trina Reneá: That's all you do with the kids is get them to the park as fast as possible. 

21:09 Rebecca Gadberry: Right. Well, remember, even if you're in the shade, you're still getting UV. So as far as sunscreens are concerned, the monograph says two years and over. If they're younger than two years, don't put sunscreen on them because their skin is too permeable. 

However, if you're using sunscreen on children up to two years old, don't put sunscreen on. Cover them up. Keep them out of the sun. After two years old, I would look for sunscreens that are made for babies or for children. 

21:47 Trina Reneá: Specifically that say “baby”. 

21:48 Rebecca Gadberry: Right. Coppertone makes an excellent group for children. 

21:54 Trina Reneá: Chemical or…?

21:56 Rebecca Gadberry: I think it's a combination of both. But you know that it's been tested on children as opposed to adults. 

22:04 Julie Falls: I have a question. Are there sunscreens to actually prevent hair damage? Any sunscreen you could put in your hair if you're worried about going out and having your hair damaged?

22:17 Trina Reneá: Does hair get damaged from sun?

22:19 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, it does. 

22:20 Julie Falls: I've heard of that. 

22:21 Rebecca Gadberry: Especially if you have color or permed or treated hair, chemically treated hair. 

22:24 Trina Reneá: It burns it? 

22:26 Rebecca Gadberry: It can burn it. 

22:27 Julie Falls: People who are out in the sun all the time and in the pool, their hair…

22:30 Rebecca Gadberry: Frizzy. 

22:31 Trina Reneá: Well, pool because the chlorine. 

22:32 Julie Falls: But the sun too. You should know that. 

22:35 Trina Reneá: I don't know that. 

22:37 Rebecca Gadberry: So, yes. If you are standing, let's say, under a fluorescent light, I remember going up to Seattle and renting a car at one of the rental car agencies, and there was a woman with red hair, which is the most affected, colorant affected by UV light. She had no color on the very top of her hair and then was red from the ears down. That's because she was standing directly under a fluorescent light.

Now, what's the ray that will do that? The color-changing ray is UVA light, not UVB light. So you need a sunscreen that is a UVA absorber, is what we call them, like oxybenzone. You can find them in hair conditioners, hair sprays, gels, mousses, anything you leave on your hair. Don't use a sunscreen for the skin because it's not compatible. But a spray would be fine or a mousse, something that you put on your hair to last. That should help with the color. It should help with perm. 

And remember that since it's the color-changing ray or the color-lightening ray, it also goes through your windows in your car. I used to have a little toy bear that my son had one for me at Circus Circus in Las Vegas. It was blue and it sat in the back seat for about five months. And he picked it up one day when he was sitting in the back seat and it was all white on the front and all blue on the back where it wasn't exposed to the sun, and yet it had never been outside. That shows you that UVA was affecting this.

24:29 Julie Falls: The bear test. 

24:31 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, the bear test. It's not on the monograph, but it is valid.

24:36 Trina Reneá: So a lot of women, when they come in, I ask them if they use sunscreen. They say that they have it in their foundation. That's what they wear. That's it. And I'm telling all of you out there right now that is not okay, because you're not going to reapply your foundation. And usually in foundations, it's at about an SPF 15. 

So then they're like, “Well, if I combine it with a sunscreen after, or like if I put a sunscreen on my face then can I use a lesser sunscreen? Like, can I do an SPF 15 and an SPF 15 in my foundation? Then that'll be an SPF 30.”

25:17 Julie Falls: I have tinted moisturizers that are up there, though. 

25:22 Trina Reneá: Tinted moisturizers, right.

25:26 Julie Falls: You're not talking about that. You're talking about a foundation? 

25:29 Trina Reneá: Well, no. Sometimes people think they can just wear their foundation and it's an SPF 15 and that lasts them all day. 

25:36 Julie Falls: Okay, gotcha. 

25:38 Trina Reneá: But then when I tell them no, then they say, “Okay, so if I use a moisturizer with some sunscreen, can I add the number of my foundation to that?”

25:48 Julie Falls: So you're saying 15 is not strong enough, or you're saying…

25:52 Trina Reneá: 15 is not strong enough. Also, you have to reapply throughout the day. So you have to reapply your sunscreen. If you're putting on an SPF 15 in your foundation in the morning and never reapplying…

26:08 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay.

26:08 Trina Reneá: Yeah, go ahead, Rebecca.

26:09 Julie Falls: I just don't even see 15s anymore. I've been using the ILIA, I know we're not supposed to say anything, but they're super serum foundation. It's very, very thin. It's wonderful. I think it's a 40. 

26:23 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay. But here's the thing.

26:25 Julie Falls: I don't even see 15s anymore. 

26:27 Rebecca Gadberry: Remember the monograph I was just talking about? In the monograph, it states what the test is. It outlines what the test is that you have to do to make sure that you're getting the SPF that you're going to advertise to your consumers. The amount of the product that you test is always the same. It's basically about an ounce-and-a-half, or what we call in the cocktail industry a jigger, from your collarbone to the top of your forehead, in front of your hairline and behind your neck and on your ears.

Now, in order to get that SPF, and it's thickly applied, in order to get that SPF, they have to apply that amount of the product in order to determine the SPF. Which is why they don't like powders, because you'd have to use the entire thing of powder to get the SPF that's advertised. 

On a tube of lipstick for the SPF 15, you'd have to apply the entire tube in one sitting to get an SPF 15.

If you apply, let's say, a foundation, you'd look like a clown with the amount that you'd have to use, including your veil-thin product with an SPF 40. If you apply the amount that was used in the test, you'd look like a clown. You're applying the veil thin, so you're not getting an SPF 40. You're getting something way lower. So that's a false sense of safety. 

28:09 Trina Reneá: So SPF foundations should not be used as your final SPF application?

28:17 Rebecca Gadberry: I don't think it should be used at all. 

28:17 Trina Reneá: Nor be used once a day. 

28:20 Rebecca Gadberry: The reason I don't like sunscreen in makeup or skincare is because if you wear a separate sunscreen, you're much more likely to get the SPF, one. It's cheaper to use the sunscreen than it is to use cosmetics with sunscreens in them. Three, you can't tell how much protection you're getting. And four, you're exposing your skin unnecessarily to chemicals that you're already applying in your sunscreen, most likely. 

So don't rely on sunscreens in your cosmetics. Go to a sunscreen only. 

29:05 Trina Reneá: But I mean, if you use a cosmetic, like Julie said, that her foundation has an SPF 40 in it, that's just an added bonus. But don't take that as a... 

29:15 Rebecca Gadberry: But why expose yourself to the sunscreen?

29:15 Julie Falls: She's saying that you're doubly chemicaling. 

29:19 Trina Reneá: Oh, okay. Got it.

29:20 Rebecca Gadberry: And you don’t want to do that. 

29:20 Julie Falls: Because I do, I'll do the Jan Marini and then— I don't wear the ILIA every day, but sometimes I just love the texture.

29:26 Rebecca Gadberry: So just rely on that or the Jan Marini, but don't rely on your foundation or moisturizer. The amount of moisturizer or foundation you'd have to apply is drawing from the base of your finger to the tip of your index and your middle finger an eighth-of-an-inch line on both fingers. That's how much you need to apply. It's called the law of the ninths. You separate the body into nine different regions and you apply that amount to each region.

30:02 Trina Reneá: Well, nobody's going to do that. That's way too much. 

30:04 Rebecca Gadberry: That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Nobody's. going to do that. And if you don't do that, you don't get the SPF. 

Again, people say, “Oh, the sunscreen was so expensive. I'm just going to use a little.” You're not going to get the SPF. “Darn it, I used that sunscreen and I burned.” Because you didn't use enough. 

30:24 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I think if people have those foundations at home, they're not going to throw them away. But the answer to your question would be if you have a sunscreen that's 30 and you have 15 in your foundation, is it a 45? No. It's the 30. It's the highest SPF but it's not additive. So if they're going to use the foundation that they have, they're going to use it up, that's fine. Put the sunscreen on under and then the foundation with the 15, or whatever, 20, whatever,foundation after. 

30:52 Rebecca Gadberry: I'd also like to go back to the broad spectrum phrase. Because anything up to SPF 15, you are specifically interfering with UVB light. Anything after SPF 15, you have to go into the UVA portion of the light. 

So an SPF 30, whether it says it or not, if it's really delivering an SPF 30, it is affecting or interfering with UVA light as well as UVB. The higher you go, the more UVA light you're interfering with. 

So people say, “Well, which one should I use? Should I use a 15, a 30, a 50?” It depends, again, on your skin. If you're going to be just wandering around, being in the office near the window, or at home near your windows, or driving, then you probably want an SPF 30. So you'll get some UVA and some UVB. You might want an SPF 50 if you're going to be exposing yourself to a lot of UVA light.

However, when you use an SPF 30 over an SPF 15, you are using five times the amount of sunscreen that's in the SPF 15. When you go from a 30 to a 50, I think you're using 15 times the amount of sunscreen. So how much sunscreen chemical do you want to expose your body to? And when you get into those ranges like SPF 50, you're going to have to use chemicals as well as the mineral sunscreens because you can't get up there other than that. 

If you're taking drugs that are phototoxic, in other words, they darken the skin, or you're wearing fragrances that are phototoxic, or if you have— I was trying to remember the name of this the other day. What's the disease, especially women get that…

33:00 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Lupus?

33:01 Rebecca Gadberry: Lupus, thank you. If you have lupus or you're taking phototoxic drugs, you're going to want an SPF 60 plus. Is that right? Do you agree with that? 

33:13 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: And a full long-sleeve shirt with a hood and a hat.

33:16 Rebecca Gadberry: Or stay in the house with no windows. 

33:20 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Right. I really am a huge fan of clothing in this part of the conversation. There's a couple of really fancy lines you can buy and spend a fortune.

33:30 Julie Falls: So just like this regular shirt is not going to do it if I have sunscreen under? 

33:32 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: No, no. Regular shirt is pretty good. 

33:33 Julie Falls: Because that's what I do on the beach. 

33:35 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: If it gets wet, no. But a white t-shirt doesn't afford like a huge…

33:40 Julie Falls: Right. But the sunscreen under it? 

33:43 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: A sunscreen under it plus a shirt, incredible. But there are SPF, UPF clothing now that are just so elegant and so pretty and so useful. They've become my staple clothing.

33:55 Julie Falls: If I'm lying under an umbrella by the pool…

33:59 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: So much reflection. 

34:01 Julie Falls: And I have like zinc-y kind of heavy-duty sunscreen all over, I still need the clothing lying in?

34:10 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: There's a lot of reflection coming in on every angle, so, yes, the umbrella is incredible. 

34:14 Trina Reneá: Either from the cement or the sand can bounce those off.

34:15 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Yeah, from the cement, the sand, the water. 

34:17 Rebecca Gadberry: UVA reflects. 

34:19 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Reflects beautifully. So, yes, you still need. Being under shade is great. Still with sunscreen, still with clothes. If you want to prevent skin cancers which, again, hey, I have this magical easy thing to prevent ovarian cancer, breast cancer, uterine cancer, pancreatic cancer. All you have to do is wear some clothes. Hey, wouldn't you do it? Yes, I would do it. I just don't understand why it's that difficult. I really don’t.

34:46 Trina Reneá: Because it's hot. 

34:48 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: That is something my patients say all the time. Have you seen people in the desert, in the Arabian desert on horses? Are they wearing bikinis? No. They're wearing clothes. They're wearing wraps. They have their whole head covered. Now it's white clothes, but they're wearing clothes. It's hot then too.

I remember, I had patients come in and they wear these huge hats, tank top and shorts. I get it. They want to protect their face. It's the moneymaker. It's just not enough to prevent skin cancer and melanoma. I just see it so clearly because I see the bad things all the time. I have to make those phone calls to patients. I'm sort of getting so angry right now because I just don't understand why it's that hard for people to understand. But, yeah, to make that phone call and tell somebody they have melanoma, it's the hardest phone call to make. 

And sometimes it's not their fault because it's genetic. Sometimes it's, yeah, they're 70 years old. Their skin has fallen on the ground because they are sun worshipers. I feel bad for them still, but they could have probably prevented it. 

And then they see the oncologist. They have to see the oncologic surgeon. They're miserable. They're on chemo. And you literally could have been wearing a shirt. It doesn’t make any sense.

35:55 Trina Reneá: This is a really good way to end the sunscreen episode. 

35:58 Julie Falls: Are you allowed to plug your friend's company that has the clothing or no?

36:03 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Oh, my friend's clothing is amazing. It's called Soleil Sunwear. She has beautiful, elegant designs.

36:10 Trina Reneá: Oh, I love that line. 

36:11 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: And it has like mesh underneath so you can stay cool, Trina. 

36:16 Trina Reneá: Is she the doctor that I met, a friend of yours at that party?

36:20 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: She's not a doctor. She is a designer. She designs just really simple, UPF elegant, pretty sun wear. Long-sleeved shirts and she has like little gloves. 

36:31 Julie Falls: Sans Soleil? Is that hers? 

36:33 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Soleil Sunwear, yeah. 

36:33 Julie Falls: Soleil, not Sans Soleil. 

36:35 Rebecca Gadberry: S-O-L-I-E-L. 

36:37 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Yeah. 

36:37 Julie Falls: That’s what I'm looking at. 

36:40 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: And it's really cool material. You literally feel it on the…

36:43 Trina Reneá: Say the name again.

36:44 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Soleil Sunwear.

36:44 Julie Falls: I just found the website. Soleil Sunwear. 

36:47 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Soleil as in French for the sun. And you’ll feel the material and it feels like ice cold. It's cooling. It's my staple uniform every day. I can't believe I'm not wearing it today.

36:57 Trina Reneá: Let’s put a link to her website in our show notes because we are not getting paid by her but we do respect her brand.

37:06 Julie Falls: But we'd like to get some free clothing. 

37:09 Rebecca Gadberry: We don't get paid by anybody. 

37:11 Trina Reneá: We do not.

37:12 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: We're just passionate. 

37:13 Julie Falls: Is this what you wear, this crop hoodie? 

37:14 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Yes, the crop hoodie is my favorite. Not the super crop. That's for really young women. 

37:18 Julie Falls: Yeah, just this crop hoodie. 

37:20 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: The crop hoodie has a little magnet here that you can snap clothes. It's great. That's the one. I have the peach, the white, and the black. 

37:29 Trina Reneá: Okay, ladies, we're going to come to an end on this episode. 

So if you guys are interested in more information on ingredients and you're into that, we are going to have a deep dive into sunscreen ingredients with Rebecca coming up on an episode soon, very, very soon, maybe our next episode. 

But thanks for joining us today. And if you want to hear more about sunscreen or that you have questions, please reach out to us. The information will follow after this. 

All right. Thanks for joining. Good to see you, ladies.

38:00 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Goodbye, everybody. So good chatting.

38:01 Julie Falls: Bye, everybody. Stay out of the sun. 

38:03 Rebecca Gadberry: Stay out of the sun. 

38:05 Trina Reneá: We're going to do a quick question. I forgot. Hold on. We're not done. 

We have a fan question from a lady named Linda. She wanted to know if you can use retinol and still be okay in the sun if you're using SPF. 

38:26 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Oh, it's such a good question. 

38:27 Trina Reneá: It's such a good question. 

38:29 Rebecca Gadberry: I know the answer to that. 

38:30 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Go ahead, Rebecca. 

38:31 Trina Reneá: Go, Rebecca. 

38:32 Rebecca Gadberry: This is what sunlight does. Sunlight doesn't deactivate retinol or turn it into anything damaging. What it does is retinol has like a little lock called a receptor for itself on every cell in the body. What the sun does, what the UVA/UVB does is it closes off that lock so the retinol can't get into the cell. So we don't want to use retinol during the day. We want to use it at night. 

38:59 Trina Reneá: So if we use it at night and then we wear our sunscreen in the morning, we can go out in the sun and we'll be okay?

39:08 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes. 

39:08 Trina Reneá: All right. No? 

39:12 Julie Falls: Are you telling me don't use any retinols in the day?

39:14 Rebecca Gadberry: That's right. 

39:15 Julie Falls: You don't? 

39:15 Trina Reneá: No. Retinol at night only. 

39:19 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: If you want your retinol to be most effective, retinol or prescription Retin-A, use it at night. 

39:24 Trina Reneá: Exfoliators and retinol at night and then antioxidants in the morning.

39:29 Julie Falls: Oh, the vitamin Cs. Okay.

39:30 Rebecca Gadberry: And one thing I'd like to add to that is, if you have a high SPF, like a 60-plus, yeah, you can wear retinol during the day. 

39:40 Trina Reneá: I just don't play around with that. 

39:42 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I agree with that. It just makes people confused so I just tell them retinols and Retin-A's at night, sunscreen in the morning.

39:48 Trina Reneá: Yeah, it does make people confused if you do all that.

Okay. So let's do some takeaways and let's go home, ladies. Here we go.

My takeaway from today is it's important to use an SPF 30 and above and make sure you reapply. Watch out for those windows. I say if you're going to be in your car a lot, tint your windows with UV protection. And if you sit at a window, tint that thing. Tint it. 

40:19 Julie Falls: My takeaway from our episode today, don't rely strictly on your foundation to protect you. Make sure that you're wearing a high enough SPF. And you don't throw away your foundation if it has SPF in it, but don't rely on that to protect you from the sun.

40:40 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I have two takeaways. One is playing on what Trina just said about tinting your windows in your car. You can get a letter from your dermatologist or your doctor that allows you to tint it a little darker than what is legal. Because what is legal tint is really light. You can't get it blacked out but you can get it darker. Ask for a letter from your doctor. I write them all the time. 

And then my second takeaway is clothing, clothing, clothing. Clothing is 100% protective and hats. Then you will be less likely to get skin cancers. 

41:14 Rebecca Gadberry: And my takeaway for today is there's no such thing as sunblock. So please remember the safest sun is inside. Don't go outdoors if you have a very sensitive skin or if you want to avoid sun damage completely. Make sure that you are covered up. 

41:31 Trina Reneá: All right, everybody. We'll see you next time. 

41:34 Julie Falls: Bye. 

41:34 Trina Reneá: Have a good weekend. 

41:35 Rebecca Gadberry: Bye.

41:36 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: XO and SPF. 

41:40 Julie Falls: I'm going to get a hoodie because I walk the dog every day.

41:41 Trina Reneá: XO and SPF. Bye.

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