Our Hosts' perspective on the Microbiome

[Intro] Hey, everyone. Welcome to Facially Conscious. I'm Trina Renea, a medically-trained Master Esthetician here in Los Angeles, and I'm sitting with my rockstar co-host, Dr. Vicki Rapaport, a board-certified dermatologist with practices in Beverly Hills and Culver City, Rebecca Gadberry, our resident skincare scientist and regulatory and marketing expert, and Julie Falls, our educated consumer who is here to represent you. 

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01:31 Rebecca Gadberry: Hello, everyone. You have got your Facially Conscious team back at it. We've just gotten off the phone with Dr. Thomas Hitchcock and Dr. Doris Day. I guess not on the phone, we were on a Zoom call. 

But we are all so blown away. We've got Julie here.

01:52 Julie Falls: I'm back.

01:53 Rebecca Gadberry: And Trina. 

01:55 Trina Renea: Hello, hello.

01:56 Rebecca Gadberry: And Dr. Vi. 

01:58 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Good morning.

02:00 Rebecca Gadberry: We kind of talk about what we just heard because we are just abuzz here in the studio.

02:04 Julie Falls: A lot to unpack. 

02:05 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, my goodness.

02:06 Trina Renea: Well, since this is a new episode, let us tell them, just for those listeners who didn't hear the last episode. 

02:13 Rebecca Gadberry: That's true. 

02:15 Trina Renea: We just did an episode on the microbiome and now we're going to have our perspective of what we just heard. So if you want to listen to this podcast, I would suggest listening to the podcast with Dr. Doris Day and Dr. Hitchcock on the microbiome first. 

02:31 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes, that's a good idea.

02:31 Trina Renea: So that this discussion will make sense.

02:33 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah. Otherwise, you will be going, "What? What are they talking about?" 

02:36 Julie Falls: What are they talking about? 

02:37 Trina Renea: Anyways, it was so overwhelmingly amazing with information that I just wanted it to go on for like three more hours. 

02:46 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, gosh, yes. 

02:47 Trina Renea: I need to go to any lectures. 

02:51 Rebecca Gadberry: I'm going to go and watch those videos on the Beauty and the Bacteria. I see that you can get them online. I think they're YouTube or something like that. And you could go to his website. I think it's at beautyandthebacteria.com, actually.

03:08 Trina Renea: And find more information about.

03:10 Rebecca Gadberry: And watch. He said there were 10 episodes, so I want to watch that. If you're a professional…

03:16 Trina Renea: He said, if you watch them all, you'll have a Master's in it. 

03:21 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah. Does he give us the Master's? 

03:24 Julie Falls: I think the thing that intrigues me so much is that it's usually, “Add this, do this, add this, do this,” and this feels like less is more. 

03:38 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: It's literally the opposite. 

03:39 Julie Falls: It really is. 

03:40 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I feel like what they were saying is hands off. Take your hands off.

03:41 Julie Falls: Yes. Exactly. 

03:43 Trina Renea: Let your body do its work. 

03:45 Julie Falls: And Vicki, I was going to ask Dr. Day this, but we didn't have enough time. But there's a wonderful article in October's Vogue. It's called, let me get my notes. 

03:58 Rebecca Gadberry: Of 2023? 

04:02 Julie Falls: Yeah. Is it 2023 right now?

04:06 Rebecca Gadberry: Is this going to air 2023? 

04:08 Trina Renea: It's the October Vogue of 2023. 

04:09 Julie Falls: Yes, October 2023. Vicki, it's an article called Sensitivity Training. It talks about the overly aggressive treatment of our skin that we've been doing in the past and how it's led to a trend, a so-called movement to ease up.

It goes on to say 60 to 70 % of women have skin sensitivity, and estheticians are prescribing gentler, more minimal routines, talking about diet and lifestyle, how does the microbiome play into some of this awareness.

I think that this is all so on top.

04:45 Trina Renea: I've been fighting this for years, and so has Rebecca. I have clients come in with sensitized skin all the time and they're like using 10 products at the same time. I'm like, “What are you doing?” I've been fighting this through my whole career. 

05:02 Julie Falls: Well, Trina just actually said to me recently, “I'm not even washing my face as much." 

05:07 Rebecca Gadberry: I don't either. I use water. 

05:09 Julie Falls: No, but let's talk about this. And I want to get it from a doctor's perspective. 

05:15 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: We absolutely know that people who use exfoliants, chemical and physical exfoliants too much for their acne actually exacerbate their acne. People who use too much benzoyl peroxide can absolutely get rashes and irritate. 

So, absolutely, I feel like the wave has come and we have so many products. I know that Kim Kardashian line was like seven different layers of things, and I think it was all just moisturizers. But, yeah, we want to add more and more and more. 

I think that you're right, certain people can handle it, certain skins can handle it, and certain skins cannot. Those are the skins that we see in the office who come in with irritation and rashes and those who come in to see estheticians like Trina. I think taking everything away and building back slowly is a really good idea. 

Can I read you something from this microbiome book that we were discussing with Dr. Doris Day and Hitchcock? Dr. Hitchcock has a thought about rosacea. Can I read that to you? 

06:11 Trina Renea: Yes, please. 

06:11 Julie Falls: I mean, yes. 

06:13 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Okay, so it's pretty cool. It's summarizing everything we're saying about a patient with rosacea. 

He writes, "After giving a lecture on post-procedural skin care, one of the attendees came up to me and said she had such bad rosacea that she had to use an assortment of topicals, prescription meds, and a heavy concealer, and she wondered if I had any advice as to why she still had a lot of inflammation. 

I asked her what she was using on her skin, and she listed 11 products she used every day.

I challenged her to go back to her dermatologist and see if she could be weaned off of some of them and try a month or two where all she was using was a bland moisturizer and a gentle cleanser.

She did, and she contacted me soon after to report that her rosacea was now a thing of the past.”

I think it is challenging for doctors because that's all we know, is to prescribe more. But we're realizing now, and especially in this holistic world, that people want to do less. I really am embracing that myself. It's a brand-new thing for me. 

07:13 Julie Falls: I don't blame it on a dermatologist. I blame it on social media. Every time you go online, whether it's Instagram or whatever, you see these perfectly filtered, because they're all with filters, but these perfect complexions, and they're using this and this.

And you're talking about Kim Kardashian, the same kind of thing. Everybody has the line and so everybody has jumped on this trend to use more and more and more products. I like that it's easing off. 

07:46 Trina Renea: The one thing that I find challenging for doctors, like Dr. Vicki and other dermatologists, is that I understand this concept of the microbiome and using less and not messing up your biome. But when people come into the dermatologist's office, they're coming in because there's an issue going on in their skin. Their skin is really red, it's really rashy, it's really acne, one of those things they're coming in for.

So, obviously, they're out of balance in some way. How do you get them back into balance? So you guys as doctors have to figure that out, what they can use that's going to help get rid of their issues. And so you prescribe different topicals and medications and things to try and get them in balance. 

If you're not going to do that, what other things can you do? 

08:34 Julie Falls: And you're not a nutritionist. That's the other, you know. 

08:37 Rebecca Gadberry: Could I add something here? That's what the book is about. That's what half of the book is about. 

08:41 Julie Falls: Okay. Good, good, good.

08:42 Rebecca Gadberry: Because remember when Dr. Day said it is not something that you do for everybody, it's an individual approach. And the antibiotic that might be recommended for this person isn't the right one for that person. 

08:56 Trina Renea: So is this book for dermatologists or for the public?

08:58 Rebecca Gadberry: I think it's for everybody. 

09:01 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I do think it's for everybody because, Trina, the answer to your question is, in my training, we do still give them the antibiotic. We do still give them the retinoids and the benzoyl peroxides, because that's what we knew and that's how we've been trained. But what this book is sort of unroofing is just new information that nobody knew. 

And some doctors aren't going to grab on to it and believe it. They just aren't. They're not into it. Other people who are maybe more holistic and into wellness overall will grab on to it and use it. But I think that the answer, the way I'm going to approach it, is if I think that they need an antibiotic, they have pustules, they have cysts, they have scarring acne, for instance, I'm going to give them an antibiotic. But I'm going to give it to them for as little as I can, as little time as possible. As soon as they're under control. Maybe I would consider doing these creams.

And the creams that they're recommending, the Skinvive or whatever…

09:48 Julie Falls: Biojuve.

09:49 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Biojuve. It's bacteria. It's C. acnes defendens, which is like you're putting bacteria on the skin, which I don't have a problem with at all. I think it's kind of fascinating, but it's another product that they have to buy. I don't know. Let me wait and see if it works before I feel comfortable prescribing it, but I would absolutely consider that. 

10:09 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, one of the things they don't talk about in the book— I'm sorry, in our podcast that they talk about in the book is that the probiotics that we use for our gut don't belong on the skin. They're a completely different group of microbes.

10:25 Trina Renea: So the probiotic creams that are coming out aren't going to…

10:28 Rebecca Gadberry: It depends on the cream. I'm not going to say all don't work, but the lactobacillus and some of those…

10:36 Julie Falls: That's for the inside.

10:36 Rebecca Gadberry: That's more for the inside. 

10:37 Julie Falls: See, I wanted to ask Dr. Hitchcock about that.

10:40 Rebecca Gadberry: Or if you see them on the label, they may be part of a fermentation process. Therefore, it's not the bacteria you're putting on, it's the bacteria that was used in the fermentation of the ingredient that has to go on the ingredient on the back of the bottle.

10:57 Julie Falls: I have to say that, years ago, I would go to Trina if my skin was ever inflamed and she'd say, "Just don't do anything. Just use a general cleanser and some Aquaphor and leave your skin alone for days." And it works. I mean, you are the original addresser of the microbiome. 

11:19 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: She didn't even know it. 

11:20 Rebecca Gadberry: She didn't even know it, Vicki. 

11:23 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Hitchcock did talk briefly about this short-chain fatty acids. 

11:27 Trina Renea: I'm still curious about that. 

11:30 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I really want to know more about that? 

11:31 Julie Falls: Does he talk about it in the book? 

11:33 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes.

11:34 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: And he talks a little bit about diet. 

11:38 Julie Falls: Certain oils and things that we…

11:41 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I can read something really cool, if you guys want to hear it again. 

11:42 Julie Falls: Please.

11:44 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Something else really cool. Yeah? 

11:45 Julie Falls: Yes.

11:47 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: It talks about diet, and I love this because I think it's just a really good overall wellness tip that everybody should really consider. 

“As we discussed in the previous chapter, we know that diet can play a large role in skin health given the interactions of the skin and gut biomes. Low fiber intake in Western societies is thought to be one of the major causes of depletion of the human gastrointestinal microbiota and subsequent increases in chronic systemic diseases, such as obesity, cardiovascular disease, Type 2 diabetes and colon cancer. Also, diets high in meat are thought to contribute to systemic diseases through the effects of the microbes in the gut biome. Diets low in…”

12:25 Rebecca Gadberry: Sorry. Especially grass-fed beef. Grass-fed beef is worse than other types of beef for that. 

12:32 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Okay. Then the last sentence, “For instance, diets low in their glycemic index, meaning less processed sugars, grains and starches, and high in Omega-3 fatty acid supplements or linoleic acid supplements have shown significant reductions in the amounts of intensity of acne lesions. The point is we need to eat diets that are low in refined and processed sugars, processed foods, less preservatives, we need healthy fats, we need healthy proteins and fiber for a healthy gut and healthy skin.” Period. 

Let's all just do this. Why can't we just do this? 

13:06 Trina Renea: I do eat like that. I have to be honest. 

13:09 Rebecca Gadberry: So, a little bit more about why this kind of thing works as far as the fiber. The fiber is the food for the bacteria in your gut. If you're not feeding your gut, if you're not eating fiber, you're not feeding your gut. That's one of the reasons, not only does it help you move everything through the hole.

13:29 Trina Renea: I thought fiber was like a toothbrush that goes through and cleans the intestine. 

13:32 Rebecca Gadberry: It is. It is, but that's not the only reason why you eat it. 

13:34 Trina Renea: But it's also food for your gut.

13:36 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, and you need that fiber. 

13:39 Trina Renea: What's your favorite fiber? 

13:41 Rebecca Gadberry: I love broccoli and cauliflower. I love all the cruciferous vegetables, anything that stinks when you cook it. 

13:50 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Cauliflower stinks when you cook it.

13:52 Trina Renea: Also maybe Brussels sprouts.

13:53 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah. 

13:55 Julie Falls: Raspberry is one of the biggest sweepers, if you want. 

13:57 Trina Renea: Oh, really? 

13:58 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah. Absolutely. 

13:58 Trina Renea: I love raspberries. I've been eating them a lot lately. 

14:02 Rebecca Gadberry: Then the other element is, when we're talking about the omegas, the Omega-3s are a little bit inflammatory, but the Omega-3s for rosacea are very inflammatory on some people, like we talked about in one of the rosacea episodes from April. The Omega-3, some people are very sensitive to it, other people are not. So, like with anything with rosacea, you've got to try it for yourself. 

14:26 Trina Renea: It can flare for rosacea?

14:28 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah. 

14:29 Trina Renea: What is an Omega-3? I mean, like, what's it in? 

14:31 Julie Falls: Supplements? 

14:33 Trina Renea: In supplements, mostly?

14:34 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Fish oils. Omega-3 and 6 are fish oils. Like, salmon and fatty halibuts.

14:40 Julie Falls: I haven't noticed it. 

14:42 Rebecca Gadberry: Soy oil, avocado oil. 

14:45 Julie Falls: No. If anything, it's been good.

14:46 Rebecca Gadberry: Flaxseed oil, canola oil, they all are high in omega-3s too. 

14:53 Julie Falls: I haven't noticed that. 

14:55 Rebecca Gadberry: You'll find it in products too. 

14:57 Trina Renea: I also find that rosacea is very specific to people. Like your trigger might be different than my trigger. 

15:03 Rebecca Gadberry: Exactly. 

15:03 Julie Falls: For sure. Absolutely. That's why it was so interesting. I kept going, “What is going on? What is going on?”

15:12 Trina Renea: We each have our own microbiome on our face, right? So the way your face lives healthily is going to be different than the way your face lives healthily, depending on your organism structure and how much bacteria is there on your skin. 

Also, can we just talk about the fact that we have thousands of bugs all over our face?

15:31 Rebecca Gadberry: We have trillions.

15:32 Trina Renea: In our skin, crawling all over us.

15:34 Rebecca Gadberry: We have something like 70 trillion. 

15:37 Trina Renea: And inside of our bodies. 

15:40 Rebecca Gadberry: Actually, we have 50 to 70 trillion cells. We have 10 times that amount in microbes.

15:46 Trina Renea: Microbes being bugs, people.

15:48 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay, you could call them bugs, but they're our friends. They're friendly bugs. They're not insects.

15:53 Trina Renea: Please don't try and get rid of your microbiome because it's protecting your skin. 

16:00 Rebecca Gadberry: And that's part of the problem. That's one of the things that she was talking about with Retin-A is that it works to get rid of microbes and these other things like BPO or the benzoyl peroxide gets rid of microbes of a specific type. When you cause that imbalance, and that imbalance is called dysbiosis, I think they used that word during the interview, when you have dysbiosis, you're going to have an overgrowth of certain populations on your skin that are going to take over and produce all of these byproducts called postbiotics. They're chemicals that are produced by these bacteria, fungus and viruses that then have an inflammation response or cause an allergy. 

And if you use a product and you have a reaction to it, it may not be in the product. It may be how it's affecting your biome and the postbiotics that the biomes are secreting.

16:59 Trina Renea: The one thing she said, Dr. Day, is that she uses the non-prescription retinols or something that are not tretinoin. 

17:08 Julie Falls: I just was going to ask you, we've all kind of gone to that.

17:13 Trina Renea: Right, because it doesn't affect the surface. It goes in and does what it's supposed to do under the surface more than the tretinoin, which was really affecting the surface and making it very red and irritated for a while until your body got used to it or whatever. 

17:32 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: It was also saying that— she didn't specifically mention which one, but I imagine it's like retinaldehyde. She was saying we only convert what we need. You know, we should have asked her more about that. Did you guys hear that?

17:42 Trina Renea: But if you use Retin-A, you're not going to stop using Retin-A. It's been a good product. 

17:47 Rebecca Gadberry: It's also known to plump your collagen, so there's that.

17:49 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I remember she was talking just about rotating. So she's not wiping these things off of her armamentarium of things that she prescribes, but I believe that she's not going to say to somebody, “Go and use this and let me give you 10 refills and I'll see you in a year.” She wants to continuously evaluate the skin. I like that. I think that's what an esthetician can also be helpful in doing in between dermatology visits. 

But I think rotating, yes, I absolutely still believe in Retin-A. I'll probably put it on my face tonight, but I'll also follow it with a really heavy oil serum or moisturizer.

18:24 Trina Renea: Right. I have people rotate all the time, like use a little retinol, then use a little glycolic, use a little— it depends on what their skin needs. But you really have to listen to your skin because if it's feeling drying, I tell them to pull it back, or if they're feeling irritated.

18:39 Julie Falls: You don't like oil things, though. 

18:41 Trina Renea: Oil? 

18:43 Julie Falls: Vicki, she likes oils. You never.

18:45 Trina Renea: I like lipid-rich creams more than just slapping an oil on, but I do believe in having a bottle of oil on your counter so that when you do feel extra dry, you add a little oil. You can put it in your moisturizer. You can put it straight on your skin. 

I do believe that you should have oil and water on your counter at all times, so your hyaluronic or something like that and your oil, as needed. But just slathering oil on my face every night, I don't know.

19:15 Julie Falls: Yeah, I hear you.

19:16 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Just wait, Trina. You'll get there. That's one of my winner tips that I'll talk about.

19:20 Rebecca Gadberry: And it depends on the oil too. 

19:22 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I want to say one other thing about the microbiome that I have done in my practice for men specifically, because I feel like men have a very hard time using moisturizer. So if I see a man with very dry skin, I used to just ignore it. I used to really ignore it because there was no convincing a man to put moisturizer on their skin.

But, truthfully, like now we know that the skin barrier, lipid barrier is very important. It's very important to keep out bugs that aren't supposed to be there. It's important to have lipids to let our happy biome live. And so I really try and take the time to tell men, whether they're 40, 50, 60, 80, “Please put moisturizer on your skin. Get a glycerin-rich moisturizer, I'm telling you, your health will benefit, your overall health.”

Your skin is not on its own. It's involved in every part of the rest of your body and your overall health. So I try and really spend a little bit of time to explain to them that it's important to get those lipids on there. 

20:22 Trina Renea: For sure. And of course when you're younger, it's not as important because your body's producing all of that on its own where, as we get older, we stop producing as much oil.

20:29 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Exactly.

20:34 Julie Falls: Then there's my husband who's like, “Is your moisturizer better than mine? Should I be using yours?”

20:37 Trina Renea: Don't call him out.

20:39 Rebecca Gadberry: Everything is individual, dear. But he looks wonderful. He takes care of himself.

20:42 Trina Renea: He does. 

20:44 Rebecca Gadberry: I think that also says a lot about, since we're talking about treating the individual and not doing a one-size-fits-all routine, what Dr. Vicki talked about with pairing with an esthetician, I think, is really important. With a qualified esthetician that works with your derm, if you're working with a derm, rather than having the two compete on what should be done and shouldn't be done.

Everybody needs to get along. And I encourage any of our listeners who are thinking about getting a derm, the older you get, the more you probably need to see the dermatologist, even if it's just for a mole check one to two times a year. During that time, you can also talk to them about any other issues that are coming up as well.

21:32 Trina Renea: And you can also find estheticians that either work in a dermatologist's office and work with their dermatologist closely or you can find one that works with a dermatologist on the outside.

21:43 Rebecca Gadberry: That I have chosen.

21:46 Trina Renea: Yeah, that you're in sync with. And if you're an esthetician and you don't know a dermatologist, you can go and meet dermatologists. Ask your clients who they go to and who they love, and then you can go and have an appointment with them and talk to them yourselves and see if you're on the same page. And then you can refer them your clients, and they will talk to you. 

So it's good to be on the same page with your derm because if the dermatologist is giving medications and topicals to your client, then you want to be able to give the products that go along with that and make sure that you're on the same page as the dermatologist. It's super important. 

22:21 Rebecca Gadberry: I think that one of the things they go through in the book, and Dr. Vi, you can correct me if I'm wrong, please, is how different products in your skincare routine affect the microbiome. They suggest other types of products that you may want to be looking at rather than what you're currently using. Is that correct? Did I read it there or have I read it someplace else? 

22:45 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: You know, I read the book. I have to say there was a couple pages in the very middle that I only scanned past. I don't remember that, but I would be very interested in what their comment about that would be. It matches that the probiotic line is what he's referring to. Is that what you're talking about?

23:05 Rebecca Gadberry: You know, I do so much research into this, and I read the book about two months ago, so I don't remember where it came from. But you know what? I think we're going to have them back on. We can ask them then. 

23:17 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Good. And one of the other things they did talk about is sleep, how the dysregulation of sleep patterns can lead to increases of free radical in tissues. So I think that that is another tip besides diet. And obviously products and lifestyle and diet, but sleep is incredibly important, you know, getting your beauty sleep.

23:35 Julie Falls: Sleep has become, it's become the new number one tip for beauty, I'm convinced. 

23:43 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I am a big fan. I really think that all these wellness tips are not just tips. People have to start really using them for themselves and continuously using them, not just try it for a month. But sleep is incredibly important. 

The other thing I wanted to talk about was all the hand sanitizing that we've been doing since COVID.

24:04 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, yes. Oh, my goodness. 

24:08 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Especially in medicine, every time we see a patient, we're supposed to wash our hands in between patients or squirt some hand sanitizer. And what we have been doing is hypochlorous acid. Does anybody know anything about that? 

24:21 Julie Falls: No.

24:21 Rebecca Gadberry: Yep.

24:23 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Well, it's our favorite. Medicine has really embraced hypochlorous acid.

24:25 Trina Renea: What is it?

24:27 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: It's chlorine in water. That’s hypochlorous acid.

24:30 Trina Renea: That sounds very burning for the skin.

24:33 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Very interestingly enough, your white blood cells make hypochlorous acid. You could literally open up the bottle and drink it. It's antibacterial, but it doesn't wipe out your whole microbiota. It's so safe. The medical community has embraced it. We can use it on the face. You can use it near your eyes. You can use it near your mouth. You can rinse your mouth. You can use it as like a mouthwash. I'm a huge fan of hypochlorous acid. 

25:02 Trina Renea: Where do you get it?

25:04 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: You can buy it online.

25:07 Julie Falls: Is it the same as hydro peroxide? 

25:10 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: No. Hydrogen peroxide is intense, much different. 

25:14 Rebecca Gadberry: And it's highly toxic so it will kill the cells.

25:16 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Hypochlorous acid. Lasercyn is the brand that we use in the office. Lasercyn is L-A-S-E-R-C-Y-N. It's available online. 

I do it in between patients if I don't have time to wash my hands. I definitely prefer the hand soap and water, but a couple scores of the hypochlorous acid, and also before we inject Botox and filler now, we're all using hypochlorous acid. Because alcohol on the face, we wipe, we wipe, we wipe and it's really bothersome to a lot of people. We actually will give them a rash. 

And I've been using hypochlorous acid to sanitize the skin. 

25:51 Julie Falls: I see Lasercyn it comes in a big spray bottle. Is it a liquid? 

25:55 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Yeah. It's like water. It's either a big spray or a small, like two, three, four-ounce. I think everybody should have one in their house. 

26:01 Trina Renea: Can you take a picture of that and send it to me?

26:03 Julie Falls: I'll send it to everybody. 

26:05 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, not everybody that’s listening.

26:05 Trina Renea: That's an amazing tip, Dr. Vicki. Amazing tip, because my daughter, she goes to school and they make them hand sanitize constantly. She comes home and her skin is cracked and red on her knuckles and on her hand.

26:19 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I can give it to you wholesale because we sell it in the office. I'll give you a big bottle. 

26:24 Trina Renea: Okay. 

26:25 Rebecca Gadberry: See, it's not what you know, it's who you know. 

26:27 Trina Renea: When you come for your facial and our lunch, you can bring it. 

26:30 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I'll bring you Lasercyn. I feel like kind of everybody has Neosporin in the house and Vaseline. Everybody should now have some hypochlorous acid.

But you can also make it. There's a machine you can buy for like 300 bucks and you can make your own hypochlorous acid. There are lots of ways.

26:45 Trina Renea: So it kills bacteria without drying out our skin and killing our microbiome? 

26:51 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Yeah, it doesn't dry out your skin. It doesn't clog your pores. It can actually even decrease inflammation, but it just doesn't wipe out the whole microbiome because your body knows what it is. Your body, like I said, we make it inside of our own blood cells, so it's not like a shock to the skin.

27:06 Julie Falls: I remember hearing antibacterial soaps were just so bad. I stopped using them so long ago, but I still see them. 

27:16 Trina Renea: I just want to make sure, to be very clear here for anyone out there listening, I'm going to ask this for the public, Dr. Vicki. Can people use this on a cotton swab on their face instead of a toner to clean the bacteria from their acne?

27:31 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Why not? Yeah. Absolutely. 

27:33 Julie Falls: I think if you can drink it then you can do it. 

27:35 Trina Renea: I don't think we should tell people to drink it. I'm scared. 

27:38 Julie Falls: Can you douche with it?

27:39 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: No, I mean, it's safe enough that if you get it in your mouth, you could swallow it. It's not bleach. It's absolutely safe. And yes, instead of a toner or an alcohol-based or witch hazel-based toner, yes, hypochlorous acid would be very safe.

Whether it helps acne or not, actually, that's a really good question. 

27:56 Trina Renea: Julie just say you could douche with it. Is that true? 

28:01 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I think you can actually douche with it. Does anybody douche? 

28:05 Julie Falls: That's the next question.

28:07 Rebecca Gadberry: It's a vaginal cleanser, is what it's called. Yes, it's called a vaginal cleanser. 

28:11 Trina Renea: Taylor, you're the younger generation. Are people douching? 

28:14 Rebecca Gadberry: No. 

28:14 Trina Renea: No douching. 

28:14 Rebecca Gadberry: But they do cleanse their vagina.

28:17 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: That's why we have Julie around. 

28:20 Trina Renea: She knows all about douching, not. 

28:22 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, douching is no longer called ‘douching’. It's called vaginal cleansing. 

28:26 Trina Renea: Oh, okay. Thank you. 

28:26 Rebecca Gadberry: They're very popular. We get approached all the time at the company to make them. 

28:31 Trina Renea: To make them? It's having its comeback. 

28:34 Rebecca Gadberry: It is. And I kind of don't like that because I don't believe in upsetting the flora and fauna and the pH of the vagina, but that's a different story. 

28:45 Trina Renea: That's a different podcast. 

28:46 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Maybe you should just get hypochlorous acid in the vaginal cleansing products that you prepare for them.

28:52 Rebecca Gadberry: I see a tiny little bottle of the spray for $23. That's expensive.

28:57 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Yeah. It's not cheap.

28:59 Julie Falls: I'll buy a big one and then put it in small ones.

29:01 Trina Renea: You probably don't need a lot. Just a little squirt, it'll take your whole hands clean. Am I right? 

29:07 Rebecca Gadberry: I think one of the things we…

29:07 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: You can make it, like I said. Let me see. I'm going to find the machine. While you guys are chatting, I'm going to find the machine that you guys can buy. 

29:15 Rebecca Gadberry: One of the take-homes here is what we were just talking about, less is more. Don't overdo it. So if you're going to spray the face…

29:27 Trina Renea: You don't need it on the back of your hands. You need it on your fingertips.

29:31 Rebecca Gadberry: No, you need it on the back of your hands too because it can travel.

29:30 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I just Googled it and one of the places it came up, the Lasercyn dermal spray was Dr. Doris Day's website. 

29:38 Trina Renea: Oh, really? 

29:40 Julie Falls: That’s so funny. 

29:41 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: A lot of derms have started to sell it because it really is, it's kind of incredible. Really. It's just so safe and so effective. I'm going to find this machine that you can buy. 

29:54 Julie Falls: Not cheap. $62 for a bottle.

29:58 Trina Renea: You can buy a machine for $300 and make it yourself. 

30:01 Julie Falls: Let's share it. 

30:04 Trina Renea: This is the new Windex like they talked about in that movie, The Big Fat Greek Wedding. It's the cure-all for everything. Clean your counters, clean your hands, wash. Oh, my gosh. 

Okay. Does anyone else have anything to say about our episode from the microbiome or shall we close this episode up? 

30:26 Rebecca Gadberry: So much, but I think we should close it up.

30:28 Trina Renea: We're going to have much more episodes on the microbiome in the future.

30:31 Julie Falls: Much more episodes.

30:33 Trina Renea: Many more, because it is a hot, hot subject and it's new information. It's new science and probably and hopefully may change the medical field at some point.

30:45 Rebecca Gadberry: It's already doing that. You know Dr. Day or Dr. Hitchcock mentioned Dr. James Layton. That's how I know Jim, is through his research on this. We weren't calling it the microbiome back then. We were calling it just bacteria on the skin. And he was one of the leaders in the industry. 

31:04 Trina Renea: And he's still…

31:06 Rebecca Gadberry: He's still practicing. He's older than I am.

31:09 Julie Falls: You're so young. 

31:11 Rebecca Gadberry: I know, but I may see him in December. I'd love to talk to him more about this. 

31:16 Trina Renea: And the Dr. Lee, who is he talking about? 

31:19 Rebecca Gadberry: Dr. Lee at UCLA, I believe is the one— not our Dr. Mark Lees, but Dr. Lee is the one who identified I think it was 36 strains of C. acne back when we were calling it P. acne. He stated that two of them were implicated in acne. The rest were good or symbiotic bacteria. If we take out the bad ones, then it leaves us open for other bacteria to grow, like S. epidermidis, so we need to keep it in balance. 

He did some of that original work at UCLA. 

31:57 Trina Renea: Why did they change the name of it from P. bacteria to C. bacteria? 

32:01 Rebecca Gadberry: Because it's a Corynebacter bacteria, not the Propioni, I think. I forget what P stands for right now, but because it doesn't fit into the P. acne.

32:13 Trina Renea: Dr. Vi, do you know what P stands for?

32:17 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Sorry, I'm looking up the hypochlorous acid. I think I found it. 

32:21 Julie Falls: I have a question, Vicki. Dr. Day touched on lasers for some of this stuff, and then she goes, "Well, that's a whole other thing." Suddenly she sounded like very anti-laser. Did you hear her say that? I thought it was...

32:37 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: No.

32:38 Trina Renea: I heard that. 

32:39 Rebecca Gadberry: As far as the microbiome.

32:41 Trina Renea: I heard that. We'll have to ask her about that on a future episode. She's going to come back and talk to us about a couple things. 

32:47 Julie Falls: Her practice has to be huge with lasers. 

32:50 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Well, absolutely. Again, if you have serious wrinkles, serious sun damage, serious desire to improve that, you're not going to improve wrinkles by putting a probiotic on your skin. Obviously, the microbiome is very important, but you have to be aware of it in general. But if you want to get a facelift, if you want to get a laser resurfacing, you're going to do the procedure and then your microbiome is going to rebound and reestablish itself.

33:20 Julie Falls: Reboot.

33:21 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I don't think she's anti-laser. It has nothing to do with the microbiome. 

33:24 Julie Falls: Maybe she's not running to do them for certain things she was doing before. 

33:28 Rebecca Gadberry: I think the laser kills off the microbiome. 

33:30 Trina Renea: But you can get it back. 

33:33 Rebecca Gadberry: So Dr. Hitchcock and Dr. Day did talk a little bit about post-procedure skincare. I've written that down as a topic to talk to them about.

33:42 Trina Renea: Good. Okay. Cool.

33:43 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: But people are still going to be doing these procedures, so I don't think she's against it.

33:45 Trina Renea: Of course. And then you just re-establish your microbiome. You know, you're doing a corrective procedure. And the microbiome, the way that they're talking is about the look and texture of our skin. Like the prettiness of your healthy skin. 

Even plastic surgeons talk about that. Like, “We can do plastic surgery on your face, but you can still have bad-looking skin that sags. You have to take care of your skin with product.”

34:14 Julie Falls: Years ago, there was a whole turnaround with oral antibiotics for— doctors were just prescribing them like crazy, like candy. And that lesson and that change, they're not so quick to do it. So I think that this is just like another version of that.

34:36 Trina Renea: Yeah. Right, Vicki? 

34:38 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Absolutely. Yes, yes. Nobody's anti these procedures for people that want them, but maybe there will be different post-instructions that we will start giving people based on how quickly we want them to heal and how quickly we want the microbiome to reestablish itself.

34:54 Rebecca Gadberry: And how often we do them probably has an effect as well. 

So you've been out researching while we've been talking. What have you found? 

35:03 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Okay, so the machine that you can purchase, I can't see the price but the name of the company is Ecoloxtech, E-C-O-L-O-X T-E-C-H. It's just a simple little silly machine that you can make your own hypochlorous acid forever. It's for residential use. You don't have to be a doctor. It's 153 bucks. And there's a couple of different ones. 

So instead of repurchasing hypochlorous acid for the rest of your life, you can have your own machine to do it at ecoloxtech.com. I have no personal interest…

35:38 Trina Renea: - We can also put a link in our Sub Stack for our subscribers as well.

35:42 Julie Falls: That's a good idea. 

35:45 Rebecca Gadberry: - And you can buy one and share it with your friends. 

35:48 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Oh, yeah. You can make it for your friends and give it away as Christmas gifts. I love that. 

35:53 Rebecca Gadberry: What a great idea.

35:54 Trina Renea: Or even make a little business and sell it.

35:56 Rebecca Gadberry: I made it myself. Actually, I didn't know we could make it. We might start making it over at YG. Why not? Instead of buying it.

36:04 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: There you go. 

36:06 Trina Renea: Totally. You have all the equipment. 

36:09 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I feel like we've covered our take on the microbiome after the Doris Day and Hitchcock episode. What do you guys think?

36:15 Trina Renea: I love it. 

36:16 Rebecca Gadberry: Anybody have a takeaway? 

36:21 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Of course. It's hypochlorous acid or bust. 

36:24 Julie Falls: Absolutely. 

36:27 Trina Renea: There's the takeaway, Taylor. 

36:29 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay. So the chemist in me is going to ask a question. Is it hypochlorous acid or hypochloric acid? 

36:35 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: Chlorous, O-U-S. 

36:39 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay, because most acids end in an I-C, so that's why I'm asking.

36:44 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: It's just basic chlorine and water. That simple.

36:47 Trina Renea: Excellent. 

36:48 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, that was fascinating too.

36:50 Trina Renea: I have one last question, sorry. So chlorine and water is what's in my jacuzzi. Is that different than this?

37:00 Rebecca Gadberry: Ah, swimming in the microbiome. That needs to be discussed too.

37:08 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: The amount of chlorine is going to be incredibly tiny. I don't know. I'm not the hypochlorous acid molecule myself, but it's just a very low dose. 

37:19 Trina Renea: But it's the same ingredient.

37:21 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I mean, you can smell it. When you smell it, it does smell like chlorine. Absolutely. 

37:24 Trina Renea: So it's like a tiny, like light dose. 

37:24 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: But it doesn't taste like chlorine. 

37:27 Rebecca Gadberry: Chemically speaking, depending upon how much salt you put into something, you're going to have salt water from the ocean and salt on your food and salt in a product in order to control pH. 

37:39 Trina Renea: So, it's the amount. 

37:40 Rebecca Gadberry: It's the amount. It's not the presence. 

37:42 Trina Renea: Right. Got it. Excellent.

Well, it was nice seeing you, ladies, and I look forward to the next episode. 

37:50 Rebecca Gadberry: Too bad we weren't drinking coffee. They could have just been listening into our coffee clutch. 

37:56 Dr. Vicki Rapaport: I am drinking coffee.

37:57 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, you are. Good, good. 

38:00 Julie Falls: Bye, everybody. I'll see you next episode. 

38:02 Trina Renea: Thank you. See you next episode. Thank you so much. 

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